Whites: Peminder, Stuart, Kong Fei, Steffen (c), Niel, Shamir Reds: Guolong, Raphael, Dennis, Ian (c), Raj Vaswani, Mike Kraal
There was a bit of a sideshow last night which saw tempers fraying towards the end of the match, which resulted in the match ending somewhat abruptly - although to be fair this was well into "injury time" and so no one can't say the match ended prematurely. However, rather than comment on matters of sportsmanship and temperament (which is subjective and for which there will be no agreement anyway), I prefer to confine this report to the footballing aspects.
I thought that, on paper, Reds looked somewhat mismatched for the Whites but you never know until you try it out and I'm just happy to get a game, so we went ahead as suggested. The early play went to form and Whites were largely dominant, exploiting the noticeably heavier (read, slower) legs in Reds, moving the ball with aplomb and were ruthless in establishing a 4-0 lead. There was a brief respite for Reds who reduced the arrears by a couple of goals but Whites soon regrouped and extended this to a 7-2 lead. To be fair, Reds - who were almost compelled to play "Route 1" football - kept plugging away and with 10 minutes to play, reduced the arrears to 9-7 as Whites appeared to tire. At about 10.20pm, Whites were hanging on to a slender 10-9 advantage when the match ended in abrupt fashion (see comment above).
As a postscript, I think the majority of us enjoyed the workout and at our age, this is really what we ought to be focused on and be thankful for!
I would add that tempers were frayed throughout the whole match, particularly in relation to one individual and, similar to 25 August, the match was thoroughly unpleasant.
As discussed last night, I'm not sure that I wish to play any more, at least not until action is taken following several overly-aggresive tackles. Though admittedly we were 'deep in injury time', it is unacceptable for the game to end at a point when a player feels we have to stop because of such behaviour. That is not fair to everyone involved.
Dennis could have been seriously hurt by the last challenge.
Last Edit: Sept 23, 2015 13:48:10 GMT 8 by Raphael
Post by Just D James on Sept 23, 2015 14:18:43 GMT 8
Ian - you are not a lawyer in this forum and need to stop being a nice guy...just because you help plundered 4 goals from our passes does not mean you can ignore the controversies of the game.
I guess its only fair in the name of sportsmanship to explain how the game was brought into disrepute by a single individual and stopped abruptly at the end.
As most would know, Tues games are often laden with controversies some more so than others. however last night's game was special for right and wrong reasons:
a) we were woefully unbalanced on the pitch after 5 mins; not due to anyone's fault but we could see that whites were stronger and better co-ordinated, better touches while reds were in complete disarrray, poorly organised, poor positional and terrible passing, myself most definitely included;
b) Whites were ruthless and relentless in their pursuits, Shamir was having a field day upfront and Steffen was also fired up so its not unexpected to see plunder all the goals. Shamir seemed single minded in his pursuits to score all the goals, he was at times selfish in his play ignoring his fellow players in better positions and well marshalled by Raj and Mike towards the end of the game which explained how the reds contrived to come back from 8-2 down to only trailing at 10-9.
c) Ian underplayed it by saying that Reds were plugging away - it was more than that - grit determination, tactical defending which was woefully absent the first half, and profligacy of Shamir and selfish shooting allowed the Reds to get back into the game as we soon recognised who was the dangermen in the Whites and the Whites were all keen on pouring forward and left gaps at the back.
d) comical defending which plagued the Reds such as poor back passes was contagious and even the whites were not spared as Ian and Guolong benefitted and scored.
e) I believed that caused frustrations in the Whites and led to a single individual taking matters in his own hands in the most unsavoury way - thus the section "the Pirouette Man Returns".
"The Pirouette Man Returns"
Sad to say I have only played with this individual twice and both times he has come across as a vindictive reckless individual who is trying to prove a point. the first time was when he did a pirouette and smashed his hand into my nose and drew blood (read report 25 august).
As a footballer, purely on skill I love this guy! he is really good and skilful with his dribbles and ball holding skills even to the point of exuding arrogance. man you might not believe it I was even prepared to trade him for Raphael when Steffen wanted Raphael pitted against me when the line ups were announced.
but like balotelli, the Pirouette Man (let's accredit him with that name - makes the report more colourful) is difficult to suss out, the mental and emotional state with frustrations all penned up inside. he seems sensitive, and bitter - and brooding. with every tackle that he gets shut out, every effort to wind him out, he is seething inside. everyone knows I am a wind up merchant but I am never a dirty player and would apologise for every physical challenge if I recognised one I made.
1, 2 and 3 Times you are out!
the first offence, was when he challenged for the ball and kicked Mike's hands and he still kicked the ball even when Mike's hands were already on it. I was extremely annoyed with that - because that's how I fractured my finger - but I dont recall seeing him apologise but Mike was quick to diffuse the situation and saying he's alright.
the 2nd time was when there was a two one one defending and I stole the ball off him and as I was about to pass the ball from defence I took a huge whack on my left shin. we called for a foul and everyone can see the reckless tackle as if it was a retaliation for losing the ball, but again no apology and we proceeded with the free kick.
3rd mindless moment - fast forward to the dying minutes of the game, Raphael hustled the Whites and stole the ball in defence, surprisingly in a swich of roles I was on the left wing, received Raphael's ball in a classic counter attacking move and just played the killer pass in 3 on 1 scenario for the ball to be finished off, then BAM!!! I was rammed off my balance as I played the pass and thrown to the ground like a rag doll! in the follow through, my right wrist was trodden upon (which I assume was accidental because of the momentum of the battering ram) and was bleeding from the cut as a result.
The Pirouette Man strikes again!! everyone on the pitch could see that and knew that it was not only a reckless lunge but it was a mindless tackle! the ball had already gone but I guess the frustrations of the tight scoreline and profligacy just caused the Pirouette Man to implode inside!
I was momentarily concussed but managed enough to get up and tell everyone, let's stop the game I am done. the score might be 10-9 and we were on course to equalise but no, I am not going to get maimed for a Tuesday night adults football game. Ian was naturally disappointed because he was so keen to square the game but I decided on the note of caution I was not going to retaliate nor suffer a broken leg as a consequence to continue further.
I have no hard feelings against anyone in any game whatsoever and I am certainly not out for any vendetta so I certainly dont expect grown adults much lest a Pirouette totting, skilful Maradonaistic lean fit individual to resort to such antics to prove his point!
seriously Pirouette Man has enough arsenal in his inventory to blow anyone away without resorting to such dirty reckless play - even if he says it wasnt dirty - it is absolutely reckless - the kicking of the goalie's hands, the whack on another player's standing leg when he already has the ball and finally the battering ram move!
And no remorse and no word of apology either - it was premediated? I dont know u need to dissect his brains to find out what's goes on inside that fragile sensitive state of mind.....
Seriously - these are the type of games and individuals we try to avoid when playing football - overly agressive, reckless tackles, out to seriously hurt another individual or to put it mildy tackling without care of the safety of the other person. it is one thing to be physical and another to be reckless and vindictive in tackles.
and no apology whatsoever - or to acknowledge the foul - most of the time even if one does not apologise at least acknowledge it. not the Pirouette Man - he thinks he is too good for that.
Raphael, are your SMSes to me last night private? You started off your first SMS with "Not sure if texting this is private so won't go into it in this msg, but happy to share details with you", so I am not sure, especially now that you have posted on this thread.
I have obtained the views of the two captains. The response I got was the last tackle on Dennis was "aggressive', not "violent".
I have separately dealt with "Sportsmanship" in a new thread under the "Introductions, Requests & Chats" board.
I would be grateful if responses on the issue of "Sportsmanship" generally could be posted on that thread, rather than on this thread. If they are posted here, I will move them.
The Kodaka that is quoted in the "Sportsmanship" post is the one Raphael admired greatly in the game on 18 August 2015 (one in which Shamir played but Dennis didn't):
Apart from the issue of any bad tackles, significant parts of Dennis's comments on the report thread for last night's game appear to be a further attempt to wind up Shamir. Dennis does himself no service by carrying on in that way.
Shamir has replied to me on the various incidents described in Dennis's post, and I will look into them further.
If you provide a fuller description of the "scything tackle early on" on you, I will look into it further as well.
Post by Just D James on Sept 24, 2015 1:42:44 GMT 8
Come on ii was thrown to the ground as if hammered by a a freight train u know I m a big guy n with a bruised n bleeding wrist how can that not be violent? I fell to the ground with a thud n could have been seriously injured that's why I reported it.
Rajiv why don't u ask other neutrals in the team ? N ask them what they saw.
Anyone who knows me know I can take a hit physical or aggressive but a reckless attempt to injure another opponent that I cannot appreciate. Else why would I stop the game when for all intents n purposes we would hv equalized n even won!
When considering whether a tackle is dangerous, reckless or over-zealous, I look at the act itself, not the consequences. Having determined whether a tackle is dangerous or reckless, then the consequences may be seen as aggravating.
Even an innocuous challenge can result in serious injury, so I don't start off by looking at the injury first.
I will look at each incident when I have been provided sufficient details. Characterising the act as dangerous or reckless isn't detail, it's a conclusion.
Mike and Shamir have both replied to me on the kick to Mike's hand.
And from my reply to you on the "Sportsmanship" thread:
Plus I wasn't only one who clattered, Ralph was too n he didn't wind up anyone so it's tough to just pass comments when the missing tues bro was not at the game! U should ask Ralph or anyone who saw how Shamir took me out to know what were the circumstances like last night!
Retaliation of any kind is of course as serious. I am not impressed with the false logic of "if he can dish it out, he should be able to take it". However, looking at the issue more broadly, I have to address the cause.
Dennis has played in 16 games since he resumed playing in April 2015, and there has been a blow-up in several of them, involving several other players. To be fair to Dennis, he wasn't involved in every one of those incidents, but my fear is that his repeated mouthing off during the game sets a negative and aggressive tenor to the game, and different players react differently to it.
My impression is that there was some carry over from the one and only previous game that you and Shamir played together in, on 25 August 2015. The exchange continued on the report thread. Maybe I should have put my foot down then. Anyway, better late than not at all.
Again, to be fair to you Dennis, on the WhatsApp group chat for the game on Tuesday, you were willing to have Shamir on the same team as you, and Raphael on the opposing team. However, the final say is with the team captains, and when I suggested keeping players familiar with each other on the same team, they agreed. ....
You may be clever enough to disguise verbal abuse as "winding up". Shamir may be skilful or clever enough to disguise retaliation as an aggressive or over-zealous tackle. In the end, my requirement of both of you is to cut it out.
I will deal with all the information I have been provided to date on the specific incidents during the game.
Raphael first SMSed me at 10.48 pm on Tuesday as follows:
Hi Rajiv, game was abandoned near the end due to violent conduct (an atrocious tackle that left Dennis bleeding from the wrist). Not sure I wish to play any further until action is taken as someone is going to get seriously hurt soon. Not sure if texting this is private so won't go into it in this msg, but happy to share details with you.
In response to my query "Who by?", Raphael messaged me at 10.59 pm as follows:
I had a word with both players that night, and messaged Raphael at 11.32 pm that night to inform him that I had.
Raphael SMSed me at 7.58 am the next morning to ask what was the outcome. I replied to him at 8.07 am as follows:
I'm having a word with the 2 team captains today. Will post an update on the forum later this week. Will let you know when I do.
In response to Raphael's complaint, I messaged Dennis to inform him that Raphael had made a complaint against Shamir, and that I was also messaging Shamir. The information Dennis provided me in response (between 11.07 and 11.07 pm) was as follows:
Immediately after I received Raphael's second SMS, I messaged Shamir as follows:
On Wednesday, I messaged the two team captains to ask if they would consider Shamir's last tackle on Dennis "violent".
Steffen's reply was "No. Aggressive."
Ian's reply was "I think it looked tough but I'm not sure it was violent. Hard to say as I didn't really have a good view. Better ask others."
I thought the matter was under control, then we had Dennis's post above, which I considered a continuation of his being a wind up merchant, and an exaggeration of his account to me the night before.
I nevertheless drew Shamir's attention to the allegations made against him. His reply:
I messaged Mike to ask if Shamir apologised to him. He replied as follows:
In response to Raphael's post above, Shamir messaged me as follows:
In response to the quote from the fourfourtwo.com article in the post on Sportsmanship, Shamir messaged me as follows:
The above are the accounts and responses I received to the incidents during the game on Tuesday.
I have messaged all the other players who played on Tuesday. If anyone has anything to add about the incidents, please post below or message me. However, I will quote you if necessary. If you do not wish to be identified, let me know when you message me.
Again, going forward, I would be grateful if everyone kept their responses factual. If players wish to address the broader issue of sportmsanship and the reactions to gamesmanship, please do so on the "Sportsmanship" thread.
I will lock this thread at the end of today. I will draw my conclusions over the weekend.
Rajiv - thanks for your comprehensive investigation into this. Those involved need to take onboard your various comments.
More importantly, as a general comment, one thing I would like to see is that the captains actually play their role as captain. If players in their side are being over the top verbally or physically then they should be stepping in to stop it, even if it means halting the game momentarily.
I have played in matches recently where the captain has had no real presence as the team captain during the game. We need to ensure that if we are appointing captains each week that they are competent, capable and ultimately confident to exercise their responsibility. Whilst also driving the tactical steer, if someone is too loud, winding people up or being overly physical the captain should be addressing it. It is their voices we should be hearing during the match.
If any player does not co-operate with a team selector/captain, please let me know. Conversely, if any player feels that a team selector/captain is making unreasonable demands of him, he can let me know as well.
During a game, the two team selectors/captains also have the final say on the application of the Playing Rules & Principles. If the team selectors/captains cannot agree, the issue should be discussed on the report thread after the game, and may be followed up on the appropriate announcements and developments thread. Any residual dissatisfaction after the game can also be discussed on the report thread for the game.
Experience helps a lot.
And under the "Team selectors/captains & line ups" section of the GIFFA System thread:
Each team selector/captain represents the other players on his team, and is entrusted to exercise objective judgment in assessing and deciding on line ups. Players should vote wisely in the team selector/captain poll, as each player will end up on the team of one of the two team selectors/captains. Team selectors/captains have the final say on all matters relating to that game.
Every player has a responsibility to vote wisely.
Players do need to use the system effectively. Increasing familiarity with the system helps. The Tuesday game is relatively new, with more players who are newer, or haven't played for a while, or haven't played together before much or at all, so it may take some time.
Also, the "Adults" in "Generic Football For Adults" is not superfluous. Everyone is expected to participate as an adult, with maturity. I wouldn't want to place too much of a burden on the selectors/captains.
Flexibility and accommodation extends to making changes during the game. If one team is dominating the game and take a big lead in the first half of the game which appears unassailable, or one team is a player short due to uneven numbers, a no show, a late withdrawal, an injury to a player, a player having to leave early, or a temperamental player walking out of the game, or a team is significantly weakened by an injured player who continues to play in a limited capacity, team selectors/captains need to consider what changes to line ups and formations are necessary to keep the game competitive. The onus is greater when the scoreline is or approaches one that is grossly one-sided, as defined in the Appendix below. Where the team taking a big lead is largely a group of friends who don't want to be separated, one other player from that team switching over so that the other team has two players extra remains an option, as discussed in the section above.
If a team is leading by a big margin, instead of making less effort, any player on the team that is leading can suggest to his team selector/captain that line ups be changed. If he is a very good player, he can offer to be the player switched. If both selectors/captains agree, they can agree on having a player from the other team switch over. The player switched over shouldn't feel he is the weakest link on his team. It could be any player. Often, it will not be the weakest player, as the other captain may not want him in any event. Or the selectors/captains can agree on a wider range of changes.
I'll let others address your point then Raj. I was addressing the role of team selectors/captains, and how players do need to respect the team selector/captain, and not play as if its their game, or decide for themselves how the game should be played.
I continued to chat with Shamir and Dennis on WhatsApp last night, and Dennis gave me a call, so I had a chat with him over the phone too.
Both players were somewhat shocked that I quoted their WhatsApp messages to me in the above, but when I did so, I felt I had no choice, in order to clear the air. I think it has served its purpose, and I have removed all the quotes.
Dennis also felt that while he had toned down his messages to me on Tuesday night in order not to inflame the matter, his post above didn't identify the player. However, the player can be identified from the report thread for the game on 25 August 2015, as well as by those who played in the game on Tuesday, so I don't think there is any point in maintaining anonymity there. Clearing the air is more important. And I'm not talking about the haze.
My understanding of the sequence of events is along the following lines:
Dennis and Shamir played in the same game on 25 August 2015. Shamir had played in over 40 games over the past year, without incident, at least not any that has been brought to my attention. I had played with him a couple of times, and got on fine with him. I used to play regularly with Dennis between 2000 and 2007, so I know him quite well. He has always been quite a character. He is capable of rubbing people up the wrong way, especially when on the pitch, but you have to look beyond that to see his good qualities. Dennis had been in Hong Kong from 2008 until he returned to Singapore in April 2015. He has played in 16 games since his return. I received feedback from several regulars that he was loud/aggressive. I asked him to tone it down. He said he would, and I believe he has.
There was an exchange on the report thread for the game on 25 August 2015. I tried to defuse the situation, but clearly not successfully. In fact, Dennis had not seen Shamir's reply, or my response, until after I mentioned it in a WhatsApp message to him last night.
Shamir came into the game this Tuesday still looking to stand up to Dennis. I think he was overly pumped up for it, and ended up making a few unnecessarily aggressive tackles.
There was then an exchange of mocking laughs between them, which further aggravated the situation.
The final tackle on Dennis was again unnecessarily aggressive.
Dennis was genuinely in fear that the matter would escalate further.
I am not looking to blame anyone. I am looking to address issues that have arisen, and to try to ensure they don't happen again.
If we were to apportion blame, the list is potentially endless:
Dennis, for being Dennis.
Shamir, for responding to Dennis the way he did.
Every player who ever failed to raise a relevant issue with the selectors/captains or me, and let it fester or smolder, or be pent up, and then explode.
Me, for not identifying the issue correctly or early enough, and not nipping it in the bud.
The team captains in both games, for not taking control of the situation.
In chatting to both players, both agree that what happened shouldn't have happened, and accept a degree of responsibility.
In the case of Shamir, it is straightforward, he shouldn't have responded the way he did. For Dennis, it's far more complex, because he brings his whole personality into each game, and he is a complex personality. From the "Sportsmanship" thread:
One thing I have struggled to understand, and which came up in my phone conversation with Dennis, is why several players react so badly to him. "Loud", "aggressive", "shouts a lot" doesn't really explain it. And I do believe he has toned down a lot, not only from the time we used to play together from 2000 to 2007, but even from his return to Singapore in April 2015.
The feedback is usually expressed in such generalities, and lacks specifics. I am therefore left to try to identify various possibilities:
I don't think there is a simple answer, but I am trying to answer the question, because it is no good to me to know that several regulars are unhappy with a particular player, but haven't, or can't, provide me with specifics. It just leaves the issue to blow up again in the future, with someone else.
As for sanctions, yesterday, I received the following message on WhatsApp from a player who requested not to be identified:
I have been reading with interest the on going saga between Dennis and Shamir. In my view we should not condone an aggressive response to winding up. Shamir should have been aware that he has other recourses available to him e.g. he could have approached the captains to lodge a complaint. I think Raphael makes a very good point in that regard. On Dennis part, such winding up behaviour and thrash talking should have no place in our game. Again, the captain on Dennis' team ought to have reigned him in even without Shamir asking for this. The captain on Shamir's team could also have had a word in Shamir's ear about the aggressive tackling. In my view, both players deserve some form of sanction. If there is none, the behaviour may escalate or repeat itself again. I am happy for you to post this, but please maintain anonymity. Thanks.
It is not someone who has commented before, and it is someone who I believe has played with both players. My reply:
The toughest sanction may be that they both have to be on their best behaviour next time they play in the same game. With captains/other players reminded to bring to my attention any infringement.
But now, I'm no longer sure "winding up" is the real issue.
I will give sanctions further thought. I agree though, that the most important thing is to be prevent recurrence, so I am focusing on that. I will not lock this thread for now.
Every player has a responsibility to take due care. While injuries, even serious ones, may arise even from innocuous tackles, the risk is greater from reckless or overly robust play. Both need to be cut out. Players prone to injury should also take greater care of themselves.
Any tackle that goes through an opposing player, or catches or goes through an opposing player in the follow through is not allowed, and is a foul. If excessive force is used, it will be viewed far more seriously.
No matter what the provocation or grievance, any form of retaliation will be viewed very seriously.
Our games accommodate players of varying styles and abilities. This was addressed on the old blog as early January 2009, in a post entitled "Playing Styles And Foul Play". Some players generally tackle harder than others. Players who are overly robust should cut it out. Players who are clumsy should be more careful. However, to deliberately go in harder on certain players because you have an issue with them or don't like them is wrong. If you have an issue with another player, bring it up with the team selectors/captains, or me. To target a player to be on the receiving end of greater force than a player would usually apply is a form of intentionally robust play, and may be viewed more seriously than overly robust play arising through recklessness (for which greater care should be taken) or a personal style of play (which should be moderated).
If a foul or bad tackle was accidental, arising from misjudging the situation or mistiming the tackle, an apology should be forthcoming. If nothing else, the apology serves to show that it was in fact an accident. An apology offered should be accepted by the player on the receiving end. If there is any issue to follow up on, do so with the selectors/captains, on the report thread, or with me.
..., all our games should be played in the spirit of sportsmanship.
What is clear that all conduct that amounts to gamesmanship or that adversely affects the spirit in which our games are played is not allowed. This includes:
Damaging the mood of the game by excessive or prolonged shows of anger, aggression, petulance or pettiness.
Repeatedly finding fault with your team mates.
Ignoring or trying to override the team selector/captain.
Any form of verbal abuse, whether of a team mate or opponent. Verbal abuse is not limited to use of swear words, but includes prolonged or repeated criticism or verbal attacks on any other player in a negative or derogatory manner.
Trying, whether verbally or through conduct, to provoke an opponent into retaliation.
Feigning being on the receiving end of a foul, or feigning an injury.
Calling out to an opponent or the opposing team with the intention of confusing them, for example calling for a pass from an opponent so that he believes a team mate is calling for the ball, and thereby concedes possession.
Insisting on calls during the game, such as on corners, goal kicks, kick ins, fouls and goals, going in favour of oneself or one's teams. The rules provide for how calls should be decided in the event of a dispute.
During the game, players can refer such conduct to the team selectors/captains. If appropriate, team selectors/captains should speak to the offending player. After the game, any player, including the team selector/captain, can refer such conduct to me, with sufficient detail of what transpired.
As reiterated recently, the "Adults" in "Generic Football For Adults" is not superfluous. Everyone is expected to participate as an adult, with maturity. I wouldn't want to place too much of a burden on the selectors/captains.
Maintaining health, fitness and/or interests even as we get older through sustainable participation in sports and other activity.
Facilitating a work-life balance.
Voluntary participation with maturity and in good spirits.
Achieving a balanced and healthy perspective on sport and competition.
Developing friendships and finding enjoyment through participation.
Everyone who plays by the rules and core values is welcome. The converse is that anyone who does not play by the rules and core values is not welcome.
As I also reiterated recently, this forum, and the GIFFA System, are facilitative. I operate the forum and system to provide broad parameters, and guidelines. If players want to participate in our games, and to get the best out of our games, they have to make proper use of the forum and the system. If there is something about our games that bothers you, speak up, either to any player that is the cause, to the team selectors/captains, or to me. There are plenty of avenues to address your concerns. You don't have to bear it, or worse, walk away from our games. On the other hand, don't retaliate or react in a way that may itself amount to a breach of the Playing Rules & Principles.
As I said to one of the players recently, I am not here to be a policeman. Very often, an apology from the offending player will resolve the matter. If a matter is closed on the forum, but anyone remains aggrieved, or feels that the matter is more serious and further action should be taken, you have to decide for yourself if there has been a violation of the law, or whether you have other recourse in law, and follow up as you think fit with the relevant authorities, or with other proceedings. I am not in a position to advise players on this.
On the other hand, if despite several reminders, a player doesn't participate in accordance with the principles and rules, or his breach is very egregious, I will have no choice but to exclude him from further participation, whether for a period of time, or indefinitely. As I am prepared to give everyone several chances, I do not easily treat a breach as very egregious.
I've reminded both players of what is required. This serves as a further reminder. I will treat the incidents during this game as closed. As Raphael says, we should move on.