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Post by Rajiv on Sept 23, 2015 19:09:46 GMT 8
The "Playing Rules & Principles" provide as follows: PLEASE READ TO THE END OF THIS THREAD. YOUR PARTICIPATION IN OUR GAMES IS PREMISED ON IT.We play each game without a referee. The playing rules set out in the post below are geared towards keeping the game flowing while reducing the risk of injury and are intended to accommodate different styles of play. .... Our core values are: - Maintaining health, fitness and/or interests even as we get older through sustainable participation in sports and other activity.
- Facilitating a work-life balance.
- Voluntary participation with maturity and in good spirits.
- Achieving a balanced and healthy perspective on sport and competition.
- Developing friendships and finding enjoyment through participation.
Everyone who plays by the rules and core values is welcome. The converse is that anyone who does not play by the rules and core values is not welcome. During a game, the two team selectors/captains also have the final say on the application of the Playing Rules & Principles. If the team selectors/captains cannot agree, the issue should be discussed on the report thread after the game, and may be followed up on the appropriate announcements and developments thread. Any residual dissatisfaction after the game can also be discussed on the report thread for the game. Anyone who repeatedly breaches or disregards the rules and principles may be blocked from playing for a period of time. To this end: - If a team selector/captain informs me that a player on his team repeatedly breaches the rules or doesn't play in the right spirit (including in previous games), I will remind him in writing (WhatsApp, e-mail or personal message on the message on the message board). The same applies if I am informed by two team mates, or any 3 players, instead of the team selector/captain. The player concerned will not be informed who provided me the information.
- If a player is reminded a second time, then on the third occasion, he will be suspended for 4 games, provided that the information is provided by at least 2 team selectors/captains or 5 players in total.
- If the information concerns a team selector/captain in his role as a team selector/captain, in addition to reminding the player concerned, I may exclude him from the team selector poll for up to 4 games.
More serious cases may result in an indefinite or permanent ban. .... Playing Rules: .... - ..., committing a deliberate foul, or calling out to a team mate to commit a deliberate foul, clearly amounts to not playing in the right spirit. Likewise for all forms of gamesmanship, such as simulation or going down easily looking for a free kick or penalty, pressing excessively for a decision to go in favour of one's team, and calling out to an opponent to pass the ball to you in order to confuse the opponent.
.... The core values are also repeated on the "Forum Overview" post. Although it has been discussed at various times, "sportsmanship" is not mentioned in the above passages. From Wikipedia: It is easier to define an antithesis of sportsmanship, "gamesmanship": An early occasion unsporting behaviour was discussed was in January 2009, as follows: This led to the above rule on calling out to an opponent to confuse him. In May 2013, I first addressed the issues of simulation and gamesmanship. This led to the rule being extended to cover these areas. More recently, in May 2015, we discussed wind up merchants, as follows: .... From what I have been provided, it does seem more a case of winding up an opponent, so I've drawn the attention of both Dennis and Kodaka to this - "How to deal with a wind-up merchant". I have asked Dennis to tone it down, especially with players he is meeting for the first time. We are a big, diverse group now, and some players may not take kindly to his style, so get to know them first! Let's respect players each other. If we see something is wrong or too rude shouting, let's stop the game. At least, I will walk out. .... point taken buddy. no offence but it was a bit of English banter between some of the lads - I know Ian for a long time so always love to wind him up - It was not meant to offensive. Yes we are all from different cultures so we should respect one other - I dont recall being abusive to you or anyone else in particular but definitely towards Ian - because he is a "close" friend - If you dont like the shouting environment, its kind of difficult to play in total silence. At long as the shouting does not get abusive or antagonistic, I dont think it should be prohibited buddy. If one person thinks he wants to stop the game and walk out, then it may not be for the best of everyone on the pitch as that team would be short of numbers. Captains are there for a reason so raise it to your captain and he can speak to the captain from the opposing team - let's not start with the "I will walk out" practice. It is not healthy and certainly not mature. I am happy for anyone to disagree and share views but most importantly let's enjoy the game. btw, shouting also includes words of encouragement.... and if Ian is not there, the game is generally quiet with little or no banter because there's no one to wind up! lol see you tomorrow again buddy - for the record, I think you are an excellent player. thanks for speaking up and raising your opinion, always better than keeping it bottled up. Good to talk. Cheers. Oh ok. If ok for all, I am fine with it. In our culture, we do not shout much. Thanks for your input. .... It is good that we can discuss these things sensibly on the forum. With such a large, diverse group of players, we are going to see differences in approach, but by playing together regularly and getting to know each other, hopefully, we get a degree of convergence, at least enough to give us sufficient common ground to allow games to played in the right spirit. It is useful to remind ourselves that, as set out in the Playing Rules & Principles thread: .... Our core values are: - Maintaining health, fitness and/or interests even as we get older through sustainable participation in sports and other activity.
- Facilitating a work-life balance.
- Voluntary participation with maturity and in good spirits.
- Achieving a balanced and healthy perspective on sport and competition.
- Developing friendships and finding enjoyment through participation.
.... I think we can all agree with that. And from above: .... If we see something is wrong or too rude shouting, let's stop the game. At least, I will walk out. Kodaka, I hope that instead of walking out of the game, you can address it during the game, or if you feel you are unable to address it during the game, you can follow up with me or on the forum (as we have in this case), and we can work towards a better understanding, and look to what is needed to keep us within our core values. Kodaka has hardly played since then. More recently, matters seem to have blown up between Dennis and another player, Shamir, in two separate games played on Tuesday, first on 25 August 2015, and again yesterday. Before Dennis played in the game on Sunday, 13 September 2015 (in which neither Kodaka nor Shamir played), I messaged him as follows: None of the players who complained to me before 13 September 2015 were Shamir. Today, I received the following message from another player, not one I had heard from before on this matter (and who shall remain anonymous), as follows: Apart from the issue of any bad tackles, significant parts of Dennis's comments on the report thread for last night's game appear to be a further attempt to wind up Shamir. Dennis does himself no service by carrying on in that way. I've played with Dennis from about 2000 to 2007, before he left for Hong Kong, so I know how bad his "winding up" used to be. I had hoped he had mellowed with age. Based on the responses I have received, I can't say that he has. I think its about time I take Dennis's winding up of opponents, and team mates, far more seriously. I think "tone it down" is no longer sufficient. It has to be "cut it out". Dennis has played in 16 games since he resumed playing in April 2015, and there has been a blow-up in several of them, involving several other players. To be fair to Dennis, he wasn't involved in every one of those incidents, but my fear is that his repeated mouthing off during the game sets a negative and aggressive tenor to the game, and different players react differently to it. Retaliation of any kind is of course as serious. I am not impressed with the false logic of "if he can dish it out, he should be able to take it". However, looking at the issue more broadly, I have to address the cause. Dennis may see himself as a combination of Alex Ferguson's "hairdryer", Roy Keane's ruthlessness, and a generic wind up merchant, but there is no place for any of that in our games. The article from fourfourtwo.com linked to "How to deal with a wind-up merchant" in the quote from 13 May 2015 at 9.45 pm, states as follows: On the other hand, our players come to enjoy a game, after a hard day's work on weeknights, and should not have to put up with a wind-up merchant. I have to add being a wind-up merchant to the list of conduct amounting to gamesmanship, and I have to take a far more serious view of gamesmanship. I will give further thought to the appropriate sanctions for gamesmanship going forward. I will take into account any views added below. WhatsApp me if you want to keep your response private and confidential. |
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Post by Ian D on Sept 23, 2015 22:56:15 GMT 8
Well said, Rajiv and I second everything posted above. We come to enjoy a (reasonably competitive) game after a hard day at work and to stay fit (and preferably, leave in one piece). Let's stick to those principles. GIFFA is really for the older set - let's be honest: most of us are "past it" and our glory days are behind us, there are no more medals to win.
Enjoy the game people.
Play fair. Play right.
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Post by Just D James on Sept 24, 2015 1:32:52 GMT 8
All good points but sometimes it's good to have someone come up to u and tell u in the face. In Shamir case, I dint do anything to wind him up in the first game but did it matter?
In any case, since when does winding up lead to any justifiable basis to hurting another player in other team? Seriously as adults u can't just tell the other guy off n rather resort to reckless acts to stop it? Is that the message u r sending out?
Sorry to hear abt the bro who dare not come up to me n say what he wanted else I would have been happy to have addressed his concerns.
I mean what is the difference when we play with a selfish dude who doesn't pass m choose to play as he fancies I mean that would ruin the game for me too. Should I not turn up as he does.?
My winding up is similar to the scenario above but if someone came up to me during the game n said he doesn't appreciate it I will gladly tone it down but if I told a player to please pass do u think same scenario would he be gracious to co-operate?
If a bro has played with me that long man up n tell it to my face instead of thinking of how to do a Shamir n deck me?! Seriously wtf is he thinking? Shows his maturity ya? anyway try coming down on weekend games will see I m different. On tues games I m with friends usually w Ian n it doesn't get bad blood. So I think it's far bigger problem than toning down its about being mature adults n speaking out at the game if we have a problem.
But decking someone or violence is not solving the problem because that would make u no different from Shamir
So man up n talk to me. Talking helps. Ever wondered why weekend games don't have problems when I play in them? Surely there has to be a reason.
Plus I wasn't only one who clattered, Ralph was too n he didn't wind up anyone so it's tough to just pass comments when the missing tues bro was not at the game! U should ask Ralph or anyone who saw how Shamir took me out to know what were the circumstances like last night!
Rajiv u should come down on Tuesdays when we next play n u will get a better picture too n now jus listen to hear say from some less mature individuals.
Seriously decking someone for being loud? R u even Singaporean or u prefer some jail time to sober up? Where do u come from to possess such angry thoughts? I m just glad u didn't play recently else there would hv been some serious problems. Talk about it man don't keep it all inside.
Even kodaka n I had a clear the air talk n the next game we played together in opposing teams no problems whatsoever n we shook hands like best pals!
So u see talking helps!
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Post by Rajiv on Sept 24, 2015 7:03:59 GMT 8
Dennis, from above: .... Retaliation of any kind is of course as serious. I am not impressed with the false logic of "if he can dish it out, he should be able to take it". However, looking at the issue more broadly, I have to address the cause. .... ... my fear is that his repeated mouthing off during the game sets a negative and aggressive tenor to the game, and different players react differently to it. .... or over-zealous tackling has been addressed many times on this forum. Gamesmanship in general, and being a wind-up merchant in particular, have not. It is about time they were. .... Seriously decking someone for being loud? R u even Singaporean or u prefer some jail time to sober up? Where do u come from to possess such angry thoughts? I m just glad u didn't play recently else there would hv been some serious problems. Talk about it man don't keep it all inside. ..... So u see talking helps! "I've wanted to deck him" - Wanting to do or wishing something that may be an offence is not a crime, not even in Singapore, not yet anyway. For me, the more material comment was "His non-stop verbal diarrhea always ratchets up the tension level in any game he is involved in." I've actually had a fair bit of feedback on you since you resumed playing in April 2015, much of it unsolicited. That's why I have been in communication with you on WhatsApp on several occasions. I think when you come across all loud and aggressive on the pitch, those who know you either don't want to offend you or are so used to it that they don't even react, while those who don't may be somewhat intimidated or don't want to inflame the situation further. It's a bit like road-rage, a perfectly nice guy becomes a deranged madman when placed in a particular, albeit ordinary, situation. .... If a bro has played with me that long man up n tell it to my face instead of thinking of how to do a Shamir n deck me?! .... But decking someone or violence is not solving the problem because that would make u no different from Shamir .... There has been no allegation that Shamir punched you, so I would be grateful if you did not suggest or imply, whether inadvertently or otherwise, that he did. It is unnecessarily inflammatory. As I said on the report thread for this Tuesday's game, please keep it factual. .... In Shamir case, I dint do anything to wind him up in the first game but did it matter? .... In discussing the matter with Shamir, I got the impression that he felt he was standing up for GIFFA principles. I can only impress on him that standing up for GIFFA Principles should not involve risking breach of other rules. It's like in a movie, people may all cheer when a hero takes out a villain, but in real life, the hero's action may be viewed as badly as that of the villain. And Dennis, you don't want to make yourself the villain of this piece. I get enough feedback to be worried for you. There really are no heroes in this piece. My impression is that there was some carry over from the one and only previous game that you and Shamir played together in, on 25 August 2015. The exchange continued on the report thread. Maybe I should have put my foot down then. Anyway, better late than not at all. Again, to be fair to you Dennis, on the WhatsApp group chat for the game on Tuesday, you were willing to have Shamir on the same team as you, and Raphael on the opposing team. However, the final say is with the team captains, and when I suggested keeping familiar with each other on the same team, they agreed. In any event, going by what the unidentified non-player said to me, putting a player with whom there has been previous friction on the same team as you may not actually resolve the issue. .... My winding up is similar to the scenario above but if someone came up to me during the game n said he doesn't appreciate it I will gladly tone it down but if I told a player to please pass do u think same scenario would he be gracious to co-operate? If a bro has played with me that long man up n tell it to my face instead .... ..... So man up n talk to me. Talking helps. Ever wondered why weekend games don't have problems when I play in them? Surely there has to be a reason. .... Rajiv u should come down on Tuesdays when we next play n u will get a better picture too n now jus listen to hear say from some less mature individuals. .... Why should the onus be on the other player to have ask you to cut it out? The onus should be on you to cut it out. Setting aside Shamir and the player who messaged me, the several other players who have given me feedback on you are all longstanding regulars, including regulars from the weekend games. You don't need to tell me who I should listen to, or not. Maybe at some stage, it might be a good idea for you and Shamir to talk face to face. I'm not sure when. On the last tackle on you, I have spoken to other players, in particular, the two captains From the report thread: .... I have obtained the views of the two captains. The response I got was the last tackle on Dennis was "aggressive', not "violent". .... As for: .... Plus I wasn't only one who clattered, Ralph was too n he didn't wind up anyone so it's tough to just pass comments when the missing tues bro was not at the game! U should ask Ralph or anyone who saw how Shamir took me out to know what were the circumstances like last night! .... . |
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Post by Just D James on Sept 25, 2015 19:13:18 GMT 8
now that I know some people cannot deal with the winding up - I would of course desist from doing it. my initial point to you was: why didnt they tell me in the first place? I genuine didnt know how much it traumatised them until these feedback. now I know I am happy to act under advisement and cease althogether.
its not about whose onus it is to do things. it takes two to tango, and hang around to talk about it after the game if you like. all I am saying is I am open to feedback.
this forum is about getting together and playing football and improving on ourselves isnt it? let's not behave like little kids. we are grown ups. I can take criticism too.
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Post by Rajiv on Sept 26, 2015 8:48:01 GMT 8
Yesterday, I posted the responses I received from the two players concerned on the report thread for the Tuesday game. I have also continued to chat to both players on WhatsApp, and had a phone conversation with Dennis last night. One thing I have struggled to understand, and which came up in my phone conversation with Dennis, is why several players react so badly to him. "Loud", "aggressive", "shouts a lot" doesn't really explain it. And I do believe he has toned down a lot, not only from the time we used to play together from 2000 to 2007, but even from his return to Singapore in April 2015. The feedback is usually expressed in such generalities, and lacks specifics. I am therefore left to try to identify various possibilities: - Trying to gee up his team. This, Dennis can do very well. Dennis likes the role of the underdog, and to show that weaker players can raise their game to take on better players, and win. I have many times played in games in which Dennis drives a team on to come back from trailing badly to win. He may have deployed his version of the "hairdryer" in the past, but I seriously doubt he still does it. I accept that he has good intentions in trying to get the players on his team to perform at a higher level. It is not merely the satisfaction of winning, but the satisfaction of getting the best out of players. In this regard, shouting can actually be good for the game. I have been in games which are very flat because everyone is so quiet. A couple of strong characters can do a lot for a game. However, after a long time away, many players don't know Dennis, and may be bemused, or worse, when he comes into the game and tries to take charge of the team he is on. Further, how it is applied within the GIFFA System may require some modification. First, we try to get evenly matched teams to begin with. Secondly, the selectors/captains have the final say on all matters, so some degree of deference to the selectors/captains is necessary. There is some discussion of some of these issues under the "Team organization, formations & tactics" thread.
- "Fucking" a team mate who hasn't put away a chance, made the "right" pass, or made a mistake that has conceded an opportunity or goal to the other team. The first point is that derogatory, insulting or abusive language should not be used. Dennis may have on occasion done so in the past, but I seriously doubt he still does so. Secondly, express the exhortation in positive terms. For example, if a chance is missed, instead of saying "How could you miss that?" or something else negative, if a player skies a shot or puts it wide, a call of "keep your shots down" or "keep it on target" may be appropriate, because you're not going to score if the shot is not even on target, while even if it is not hit with a lot of power, there is still a chance it might go in if it is at least on target. If the mistake was a result of lack of concentration, a shout of "concentrate" would be in order. If the mistake was the result of holding on to the ball too long and being closed down by opposing players, then a suitable exhortation can be made. The right pass is far more subjective. A player who thinks he is in a good position and calls for a pass from the player in possession may not receive the pass because the player in possession may see the situation differently. There is no point having a go at the player for not making the pass that was called for. Even if the player who didn't make the pass is one who tends to hold the ball excessively and loses possession as a result, the appropriate comment is about not holding on to the ball for so long, and not about making the pass to the player who called for the pass. Some of this has been discussed under the "Individual skills, attributes & positions" thread.
- Angry confrontations with opponents or team mates when there is a disagreement. This may arise from time to time with any player in the heat of the moment. Players should make extra effort to avoid these, and I do believe Dennis has made the effort.
- Winding up opponents or team mates. Done in small doses, and with good humour, it can add to the enjoyment of the game. If done to irritate or annoy opponents, or get them worked up, in order to distract them from their game, then it should be cut out. This has been discussed in the posts above.
I am left wondering if making calls like a referee might be the biggest issue. Before Dennis left for Hong Kong in 2007, he was organizer, referee and player all rolled into one. A player once said: Dennis can be very insistent that he is right on the calls he makes regarding fouls, corners, goals, kick ins, and I don't know if this has changed. However, under the Playing Rules: .... - At first instance, the matter should be left to the players involved in the passage of play. Other players not involved in the passage of play can express an opinion, but don’t press it. The final word is with the team selectors/captains. If there is no agreement, the game continues from the goalkeeper in possession of the ball.
.... and .... During a game, the two team selectors/captains also have the final say on the application of the Playing Rules & Principles. If the team selectors/captains cannot agree, the issue should be discussed on the report thread after the game, and may be followed up on the appropriate announcements and developments thread. Any residual dissatisfaction after the game can also be discussed on the report thread for the game. .... At the weekend games, insisting on calls in your favour is not uncommon, and sometimes contributes to raised tensions in the game, which has led to persistent issues over the years, including unnecessarily robust play. This is less so for the weeknight games, where players just want to have a game after a day at work, and are not looking for an argument. Players are likely to just give in to the more insistent player, and knowing Dennis, he can be very insistent. In which case, he may get virtually all decisions his way, and other players are left wondering what the hell is going on. The following comment from the report thread, made in the context of another player, applies as much to Dennis: .... players do need to respect the team selector/captain, and the system, and not play as if its their game, or decide for themselves how the game should be played. When we spoke yesterday, Dennis also mentioned some of the things he shouts when he is leading the charge as the weaker team fights back, like "They are cracking!", which appears to be intended to create uncertainty, if not panic, in the minds of the opposing team (which is stronger or leading comfortably), and therefore affects their game. Clearly this is a mind game, but I haven't decided whether such mind games should be considered "winding up". I don't think the aim of such mind games by Dennis is winning at all cost, rather the satisfaction of leading a weaker team. or a team that is trailing badly, to a good result. I think the bigger issue is that those who don't know him are not used to it, and don't know how to react to it. And again, it really is for team selectors/captains to lead a team, so take the cue from the team selector/captain. Also from the report thread: .... Also, the "Adults" in "Generic Football For Adults" is not superfluous. Everyone is expected to participate as an adult, with maturity. I wouldn't want to place too much of a burden on the selectors/captains. ....
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Post by Rajiv on Oct 5, 2015 22:10:56 GMT 8
From the "GIFFA values, principles & standards" thread: .... In response to matters coming to a head in the game on Tuesday, 22 September 2015, I created a thread on "Sportsmanship" on the "Introductions, Requests & Chat" board. The discussion addressed how to deal with "wind up merchants", but upon further discussion, I began to doubt if the term was useful at all. The more relevant discussion is on "sportsmanship" and "gamesmanship". .... .... What is clear that all conduct that amounts to gamesmanship or that adversely affects the spirit in which our games are played is not allowed. This includes: - Damaging the mood of the game by excessive or prolonged shows of anger, aggression, petulance or pettiness.
- Repeatedly finding fault with your team mates.
- Ignoring or trying to override the team selector/captain.
- Any form of verbal abuse, whether of a team mate or opponent. Verbal abuse is not limited to use of swear words, but includes prolonged or repeated criticism or verbal attacks on any other player in a negative or derogatory manner.
- Trying, whether verbally or through conduct, to provoke an opponent into retaliation.
- Feigning being on the receiving end of a foul, or feigning an injury.
- Calling out to an opponent or the opposing team with the intention of confusing them, for example calling for a pass from an opponent so that he believes a team mate is calling for the ball, and thereby concedes possession.
- Insisting on calls during the game, such as on corners, goal kicks, kick ins, fouls and goals, going in favour of oneself or one's teams. The rules provide for how calls should be decided in the event of a dispute.
During the game, players can refer such conduct to the team selectors/captains. If appropriate, team selectors/captains should speak to the offending player. After the game, any player, including the team selector/captain, can refer such conduct to me, with sufficient detail of what transpired. .... As I also reiterated recently, this forum, and the GIFFA System, are facilitative. I operate the forum and system to provide broad parameters, and guidelines. If players want to participate in our games, and to get the best out of our games, they have to make proper use of the forum and the system. If there is something about our games that bothers you, speak up, either to any player that is the cause, to the team selectors/captains, or to me. There are plenty of avenues to address your concerns. You don't have to bear it, or worse, walk away from our games. On the other hand, don't retaliate or react in a way that may itself amount to a breach of the Playing Rules & Principles. As I said to one of the players recently, I am not here to be a policeman. Very often, an apology from the offending player will resolve the matter. If a matter is closed on the forum, but anyone remains aggrieved, or feels that the matter is more serious and further action should be taken, you have to decide for yourself if there has been a violation of the law, or whether you have other recourse in law, and follow up as you think fit with the relevant authorities, or with other proceedings. I am not in a position to advise players on this. On the other hand, if despite several reminders, a player doesn't participate in accordance with the principles and rules, or his breach is very egregious, I will have no choice but to exclude him from further participation, whether for a period of time, or indefinitely. As I am prepared to give everyone several chances, I do not easily treat a breach as very egregious. And from the report thread for the game on Tuesday, 22 September 2015: .... I've reminded both players of what is required. This serves as a further reminder. I will treat the incidents during this game as closed. .... However, issues relating to sportsmanship and gamesmanship can continue to be discussed here. I have re-named the thread "Sportsmanship v Gamesmanship. |
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Post by Rajiv on Nov 17, 2015 17:29:56 GMT 8
There was a recent spate of players calling opponents "cheat", including from the following games: A player from the game on Sunday, 8 November 2015, at the Grandstand also raised the issue with me. I had a look back over the years, and until this recent spate, such childish name-calling had not been an issue, at least not on the forum, at any time since this forum was set up in November 2009. A reminder that players are required to participate as adults, with maturity. From the "GIFFA values, principles & standards" thread: .... As reiterated recently, the "Adults" in "Generic Football For Adults" is not superfluous. Everyone is expected to participate as an adult, with maturity. I wouldn't want to place too much of a burden on the selectors/captains. .... Players can disagree about calls, but the use of pejorative terms like "cheat", even if purportedly in jest, is uncalled for, and unsporting. Please cut it out. |
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Post by Rajiv on Jan 13, 2016 5:40:16 GMT 8
Continuing from above, the game on Tuesday, 5 January 2016 saw Dennis in "action" once again. Before that, Dennis had not played since November 2015. From the report thread: .... ... I kept telling the guys in defence for whites to "smack" his arse when tackling him! .... .... .... Maybe that was reason for my targeting him - quibbling with him over fouls, his tackles and overly clever moves. .... .... After I scored and bellowed the improved scoreline to Perm in his face, .... .... I view these as unacceptable incidents of gamesmanship, amounting to disregard for the principles and rules we play by, and going against what our games are for. I have been through these with you several times before. It is unfortunate that I have to repeat myself. And I don't think you have suitably apologised. A qualified apology is no apology at all. A simple "sorry" is an apology. To illustrate a non-apology, saying "I'm sorry you can't take my banter" is not an apology. I might have to impose a complete silence rule on you for you to continue playing. If anyone does a zip across their mouth at you, you have to zip it. If you don't, you may have to suspended for a period of time or indefinitely!!!  .... in another incident, he tackled me and may have inadvertently injured his heel because I was able to connect with the ball but I forgot to apologise immediately because I was too focused on improving the scoreline for the Whites. .... we all shook hands sportingly after the game despite the Whites winning 11-9 by default and I apologised to Perm after the game for causing him to leave the game prematurely. Neverthless the 2016 new me would still like to apologise to everyone on the pitch - to the Whites for my useless contribution (despite putting away 2 goals) by being lead footed through the game and not guarding my post as a defender and to the Reds, for the incessant quibbles about foul calls and disagreements. Truth be told I was not actually lamblasting anyone in particular last night as I was not myself last night - down to being overly exuberant and excited about coming back to the fold again for footie with you lot but I think I might have annoyed alot of people with the minor quibbles about fouls. I have become a softie of late maybe of my own fractured finger and frequently quibbled over over enthusiastic tackles! Hopefully with this fresh perspective and self incriminatory report - I will right some perspectives of fellow players in this forum that I am not a very nice guy. hopefully those who have shied away because of my behaviour in 2015 (for shouting too much - rightly or wrongly) for Tuesday night games should consider coming back to the game - man up to the challenge and show your grit and worth as a true sportsmen - as Calvin our skipper from last night's game, correctly put it - we have all come together to just relax unwind and destress and get a good game among decent adult people and not be embroiled in controversies, squabbles or angst with fragile egos. so chill brother - just dont antagonise people! i will endeavour to stick to that spirit! .... Sportsmanship should not be saved for after the game, it should be exhibited throughout the game. And its not about you, or anyone else. Everyone has to get on for our games to be sustainable. Overdoing mea cuplas, even if not meant to be sarcastic or ironic, makes it about you, while references to the characters or motives of other players hints at criticism of them, and makes them the issue. You don't need to second guess other players. Just cut out all forms of gamesmanship and bad behaviour. After I posted that, Dennis had a lengthy exchange with me on WhatsApp. He also posted the following response on the report thread: Rajiv you do realise I am making this effort in the spirit of the new year and being over generous in reproaching myself in view that no one takes a stand or any stand at all for that matter. rightly or wrongly, I did my own cross examination and apologised to Perm - incase he felt it was my tackle that took him out. I did not qualify any apology - anyway as I said, I will be pretentious and friendly to kind and foul alike in future on the pitch if I choose to play so there will be consistent treatment for everyone. so if there are recriminations as a result of people bad behaving, and you know most people in the forum are nice, they dont like to report others but only choose to do so, because they are themselves being given a dose of the same on the pitch, you will know why that happened. those who chose to hide behind a veil are often the ones who are guilty of some wrong doing themselves - else why hide? when I speak up, and report - I seem to feel the full force of the "law" I ought to follow that zip rule across the board then. anyway like I said, I know what I have to do. its a new year let's not start the year on bad blood. My further response: From the schedule thread for the game last night: .... After the run ins between Dennis and Peminder in last week's game (when neither was captain), as captains, I have to remind them of the Playing Rules & Principles, in particular, the following: - Playing in the right spirit.
- Unless it is agreed or conceded that there has been a foul, there is no foul, and the game resumes or continues accordingly.
- Disagreements about particular incidents, if important enough, can be resolved after the game, or on the report thread.
As Dennis is one of the two captains, the "zip it" rule can't apply to him in this game. .... After the game, I received the following complaints from two players I had not previously received complaints from: That's brings to about a dozen the number of different players who have complained to me about Dennis since he returned to Singapore in April 2015. I have reminded Dennis many times to moderate and control his behaviour. Each time, he has argued with me, providing excuses for his behaviour. It is a waste of everyone's time. With immediate effect:
- Dennis is on a final warning as to his future conduct and behaviour. The next significant incident, he faces a suspension.
- Dennis will be excluded from future team selector/captain polls until further notice.
- The "zip it" rule will apply to Dennis. If any other player faces Dennis and runs an imaginary zip across his own mouth, Dennis is not to utter a word for the next 5 minutes. The player doing so should do so from a reasonable distance in order not to inflame or aggravate the situation.
- I have added a poll on whether Dennis should be suspended for a period of time, as "punishment" for his past transgressions. The poll is above.
On the WhatsApp group chat yesterday, I had the following exchange with Raj: - Raj: Maybe you can classify Dennis as "The Devil" or The evil one.
- Me: I can put up a poll if you like Raj.
Taken out of context I know, but this is the next best thing.
Additionally, until further notice, Dennis is not allowed to put names down for other players other than for one other. The players who Dennis regularly puts down are already in large part registered, and can put their own names down, or for each other.
The poll will remain open for at least a week, if not for a month. With the addition of a poll, I have moved this thread to the Stand-Alone Polls board.
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Post by Rajiv on Jan 13, 2016 17:35:58 GMT 8
Continuing from above, on the report thread for last night's game: After last night's game, I had feedback again about Dennis, via WhatsApp, overnight. .... .... The poll is on the "Sportsmanship v Gamesmanship" thread. From another Whites player this morning, via WhatsApp: The players who voted for Dennis as captain also have to stand up and take responsibility for last night's game deteriorating the way it did. Voting is not to be taken lightly. Ian has suggested that Dennis needs a counsellor. None of us here are counsellors, not that I know of. I certainly am not. Dennis will have to find his own. Perhaps he could start with an anger management course. I have to add my own two cents' worth here: while there were fouls during the game last night, they were no worse and no more frequent than in any other game I usually play in. We do not play with a referee so who is to say whether an arm was overly outstretched or contact was a deliberate body check? Where gthe offender realised he committed a foul or a potential foul, a free kick was given to the other side. No problem. That is the way it works in other games too. It just seems that on in the Tuesday game there is far more arguing - needlessly - about fouls. This really disrupts the game and makes the whole experience stressful and unpleasant. If the Tuesday game was more physical than any other game during the week, then perhaps there is an excuse for the constant arguing, but it simply isn't. ... .... Honda was really a good testimony to his namesake. with his close control touch and move, he took his shots with aplomp however I didnt appreciate one of his moves which resulted in a shove on my nicely waxed chest to push me off. I took offence and called a foul, as is the right of the captain according to the rules but it was met with strong protestations from the whites and Honda's comments that "this is a man's game man". I said fine if that's how we should play it but its still foul as I see and in any case I played back from our keeper. I believe that was how Rajiv had educated us about the rules we should be following. Until then there was no issue and all was fine but we could feel the frustrations growing and simmering from the shortfall in numbers for the whites and it is understandable that the game was suddenly tensed, as the whites have had to defend and fight harder and waited for the talent and reinforcement to arrive and when Honda finally came, he showed how good he was. IF ONLY he had come earlier. .... Hi all, This is all a bit over the top really to me and it seems as though far more attention is being directed on Dennis than is warranted. Yes he kicked off about a couple of things and there is a tendency for the debate and mumblings between players to simmer on throught the game in such situations but was last night really that bad??? Rajiv - you've given him the zip it card and then he was immediately appointed captain. Suggest giving Dennis a few games not as captain so he has a chance to play without the obligation of being the lead to speak up when incidents occur. Certainly putting the 'transgression' poll out there makes me feel that Dennis is being bullied and I'm not getting involved in that. Raph Unfortunately Raphael, as stated above, Dennis was voted captain. .... .... I am minded to agree with you on the poll Raphael. If anyone else posts below to support your contention, I will remove it. Let's keep polls for the dirty Politicians of this world. The following views were also messaged to me on WhatsApp: - Ian was concerned that the parameters of the poll were unclear.
- Dennis was of the view that the poll is nothing more than a popularity poll.
Honda's response on the incident to me on WhatsApp was as follows: He also provided me with the following views on WhatsApp:  In attempting to apply the rules, Dennis seems to have overlooked the following: .... If significant contact is made with an opposing player by any of the above, it is a foul (even if the ball is won), with a free kick to the opposing side if committed outside the D and a penalty if committed inside the D. Any player who repeatedly commits such fouls will be suspended. .... There is a requirement for "significant contact" before a foul is called. It has to be applied sensibly. I think there is an increasing tendency by certain players to over-react, whether it is Dennis or anyone else calling fouls over inconsequential incidents, and then blowing it up, or players reacting to Dennis, and the whole thing getting blown up even more. Over-reacting is often a form of gamesmanship, in the same way simulation or feigning injury is, and needs to be cut out - Dennis has to stop the excessive calling of fouls, and arguing about them, and those playing with him need to be thicker-skinned (as apparently Honda is  ). If players are going to overreact, I will define "significant", change "significant" to "substantial" or some other word that is clearer in meaning, or consider further changes to the rules. Football is a contact sport. Our games are for adults. In this context, at its simplest, "significant contact" means over and above that which is normally incidental to, or to be expected, in our games. Anyway, I have taken Raj's post as supporting Raphael's contention, and have deleted the poll. The state of the poll before it was deleted was as follows:  As I discussed with Dennis, I don't think I was so much concerned by how many voted against Dennis, as I already know quite well the strength of feeling against him. I was curious to see how many come out in support of Dennis and vote in his favour. Never mind. From above: .... - Dennis will be excluded from future team selector/captain polls until further notice.
- The "zip it" rule will apply to Dennis. If any other player faces Dennis and runs an imaginary zip across his own mouth, Dennis is not to utter a word for the next 5 minutes. The player doing so should do so from a reasonable distance in order not to inflame or aggravate the situation.
.... Additionally, until further notice, Dennis is not allowed to put names down for other players other than for one other. The players who Dennis regularly puts down are already in large part registered, and can put their own names down, or for each other. .... Those are the sanctions for now. As the poll has been removed, I will move this thread back to the "Introductions, Requests & Chat" board. The issues are clearly broader than simply "Sportsmanship v Gamesmanship". It is about the attitude players have about our games, or take during our games, and covers several aspects, including: - Gamesmanship, including winding up opponents, simulation, and feigning injury, and making unnecessary calls during a game or insisting on calls going in one's favour.
- Excessive arguing and unnecessary displays of hostility, anger, or aggression.
- Over-reacting or retaliating, whether in words or overzealous tackling.
Further, we all need to learn to balance the competitive edge to our games with the primary social dimension. Accordingly, I will re-name this thread "Attitudes". |
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Post by Rajiv on Jan 16, 2016 8:34:58 GMT 8
While updating the weekly rounds up overnight, I looked at some of Dennis's reports again. I came across these passages: .... Ian was on time, and last night, for the first time, he was fired up, led the line with goals and assist, he even had so much passion as to even demonstrate some petulance directed at Raphael - all because he was fouled and he thought he should at least have it called rather than to defer to an earlier ball out of line incident - dont get me wrong, guys - that is the Ian I would rather have in my team - defiant - angry & pumped up - I have never seen Ian like that - I would be happy to go into battle with a Ian like that though - as a captain - he led the line with 4 goals - he hustled for every ball - questioned every call - showing arrogance and petulance, snarling at every opponent - that's the kind of captain we needed and we had it last night. .... No matter - I would say last night's Ian was probably the Ian that I would follow again as captain - arrogant, petulant snarling, goal scoring and hard working - more vocal than before but leading the line as a proper skipper - controversial too - which is always a good thing and right theme for Tuesday night block buster football Dennis has to ask himself if the values he espouses are consistent with our playing rules and principles. In fact, every player should ask himself if his conduct during games is consistent with the core values. I have no doubt that on a good day, Dennis has the ability to bring the best out of his team-mates, which is not something to be sniffed at. However, we're all older and more mature now, and mellowed by work and family, so football isn't the be-all-and-end-all it might have been in our youth. More significantly, we don't need Dennis's constant haranguing during our games, when all we want is to have an enjoyable yet competitive run out after a hard day at the office. My advice to Dennis is, grow up. From the "GIFFA system & playing rules" thread: .... ..., one of the primary aims is to keep the game flowing, and not to constantly stop the game over inconsequential or imagined fouls. .... More often, Dennis's conduct during the game results in the game becoming acrimonious, and punctured with niggly fouls. Further, Dennis's verbose reports and posts on the forum (you can view all his posts by clicking on his name above any post of his, then clicking on "View this member's recent posts") contain far too many overt or disguised insults directed at other players. His "colourful" reports of old have deteriorated into nothing much more than "verbal diarrhea". I imagine very few other players actually read his reports anymore. As for myself, I have a quick glance through just to make sure there is nothing too outlandish in them. There are of course players who enjoy or feed off the controversy Dennis generates. Good for page views perhaps, but not good for the system, especially when it risks violating core values. From all that has transpired, I am of the view that Dennis has been trying to stamp his views and values on the Tuesday night game. When he first returned to Singapore, he tried out the weekend games. However, as the standard of play for the weekend games is significantly higher than the Tuesday game, after some early altercations, he learnt to play quietly in those games. Then he stopped playing those games altogether. Now, he limits himself to the Tuesday game, where he thinks he has enough friends playing who will support or condone his conduct. It suggests to me that Dennis only wants to play in games where he can have his own way. Well, he can't have his own way. My understanding is that Dennis sees himself as some kind of combination of Alex Ferguson and Roy Keane, and has some of the worst qualities of both of them. This is not the Premier League. We don't need that in our games. I also note that Dennis's "Latest Status" reads "My trail burns with controversey but it smacks of truth....".  Whatever his motives for wanting to take on the world, he had better learn to do it elsewhere, not here, nor in our games. I did a word count for one of Dennis's more recent reports. It was about 1,500 words, clearly written with the aim of being provocative and inducing controversy, but failing to address his own conduct, which threatens the Tuesday game. Dennis's reports are all about the same length, and of the same tenor. That is not to say Dennis is without some redeeming qualities. For example, from the report thread for the Tuesday game on 3 November 2015: Dennis was very gracious and a good man. He offered to swap a few times specifically offering Rafa to us and even came over himself for our injured player. .... .... Calvin and Dennis were captains, and Dennis's team were winning comfortably. Also, from the "Social dimension; and fun" thread: .... The social dimension is primary. Competitiveness is the edge. Players who overdo the competitiveness have to consider whether they want to play with us, or find a team playing in a competitive league, or even organise their own game. .... In all the circumstances, I am adding the following sanctions: - Dennis is subject to a limit of 200 words per post on any report thread. Any post longer than 200 words will be deleted.
- He can post multiple times to circumvent the 200 word limit, but in that case, each post must have a clear and concise subject matter stated at the beginning of each post. No subject matter should be repeated, so in effect, it is a 200 word limit per subject.
I will leave his past posts as they are, as testament to what has gone on before. In an exchange with me last week on WhatsApp, Dennis added the following: I guess his "friends" put up with his nonsense. I would divide the friends into two groups: - Real friends, who genuinely don't mind his excesses.
- Other players who, over the years, have simply learnt to ignore or deflect his outbursts.
From the same post on the "Social dimension, and fun" thread: .... Sometimes, we have to ask ourselves who our friends really are. I had the following exchange with Dennis on WhatsApp on 6 January 2016: - Me: I've introduced a zip it rule for you.
- Dennis: Sure, that's what Raph does for me
Unless a situation is clearly undesirable in its entirety, as long as there is progress being made on that situation, I am prepared to deal with it, including devising rules and sanctions to deal with the situation, rather than simply eliminating the situation altogether. On the other hand, also from the post of the "GIFFA System & playing rules" thread: .... However, if unsuitable attitudes and behaviours do not change after repeated reminders and more limited sanctions, and the player still insists on playing in our games, at some stage, the player concerned will have to be specifically excluded. .... I need other players to play their part too. From the same thread of the "GIFFA System & playing rules" thread: .... If, instead of informing me of an issue so that I can address it with the players concerned, other players, especially the longstanding ones, take the view that they will disregard the system or rules as well, that is the start of the breakdown. .... |
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Post by Just D James on Jan 26, 2016 15:57:29 GMT 8
I shall keep this short since I am limited to somewhat 200 words only. Admittedly there are some truths to Rajiv's allegations and perspectives. I shall therefore addresses the fallacies only. I didnt stop playing on Sats because I couldnt stamp my values but during the weekend games, there is higher level of maturity and people speak up if they find issue with someone or something. so there is no need for me to speak up at all. I concluded that so many of whom I consider friends do not play weekends, I tend to stick to Tues when friends are available. Furthermore only usual suspects speak up on Tuesdays and at times, I try to keep the peace and uphold the rules but unfortunately I get the tables turned on me and have the culprits whom I have "offended" actually "tell" on me and pull the wool over Rajiv's eyes! so much so that when I speak the truth and nothing but the truth, I get censured. well those who play the game with me and who have not been offended by my reproach know I speak the truth. but anyway, this is not justice league so be it.
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Post by Just D James on Jan 26, 2016 16:30:19 GMT 8
Only fair to challenge Honda's allegations he "flicked" his arm at me as he came past me, those at the scene can attest that it was more than a flick (maybe google "flick" for actual definition?) let's not mince words? mate you are not the only one to have played in London, but as you said you dont know history but on tuesday nights no one likes to be shoved or blocked off, I was trying to tackle you and closing you down, you couldnt stand the heat so you used the arm to ward me off. I mean it is really not aggressive but a foul nevertheless because on Tuesday nights we do not condone outstretched arms across another's nicely waxed chest mate! if that's the stance we accepted you wouldnt be only one doing that as Raph and Perminder are often culprits and they are told off for committing a foul. so man up and apologise next time for foul rather than go on half truths to the moderator and play down your mistake. you are a great skilful player maybe best to earn respect through manning up for an action rather than to criticise another player.
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Post by Just D James on Jan 26, 2016 16:36:19 GMT 8
Honestly as captain in that game I only called 1 if not 2 fouls, the first one was the arm shove by Honda and the 2nd Perm's knee into Clement thigh which sent him to the sidelines for 10 mins. I issued a warning to Honda for a 50-50 challenge on the keeper when the ball was already in his grasp so I am not sure what this gamemanship was all about as there was a lot more arguing by the other team's captain than I did. so "excessive" wasnt the case in mind if you wnat to describe that week's game. the only argument I had was on the arm shove. and I was having a word with my counsel Ian during the game, which some people mistaken it to be argument. Lastly after the game, I walked away from an argument not continue it so need to put things right on that - milud.
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Post by Just D James on Jan 26, 2016 16:38:01 GMT 8
btw Honda did come 30 mins late and runined the game for everyone - but there was no apology too? one would have thought that you would feel real bad for letting your team down for being 30 mins late and coupled with a dangerous tackle on the keeper, and arm block off and telling an opponent that he has to man up to your skill and aggression within 10mins into the game?
well done mate. honestly I think you are a good player, skilful and at times to the point of being arrogant, "brazilian jump" too holding the ball between your feet and attempting a jump over 2 opponents...I can admire your style mate, but a tad difficult for me to appreciate your arrogance and callousness to these incidents. maybe you should come down for Tuesday games more often to the correct pitch and let everyone get to know you better and then I will happily offer you my hand and say I have misunderstood u. You are a nice guy afterall.
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Post by Rajiv on Jan 27, 2016 17:04:10 GMT 8
Dennis, I sent you this at 8.20 pm on 7 January 2016:  Honda did apologise for being 10 minutes late. However, he went to the big pitch instead of a small pitch, and played there for about 15 minutes before he realised he was in the wrong game. Since, up to then, he had only played in our weekend games on a big pitch, and this was the first time he was playing in our Tuesday game on a small pitch, my fault then for failing to highlighting to him that the game was on a small pitch, not on the big pitch. Dennis, since you still seem to require apologies, I apologise. Everything else you say seems rather petty, and all I can say, again, is there is no need to over-react. I met Dennis for lunch yesterday. We had a long chat. I guess Dennis putting names down for others is a service he can provide to others. I hope he sees it that way. I will therefore lift the restriction on him putting names down. The ordinary rules on putting names down will apply to him, as with everyone else. From the GIFFA System thread: .... There are two restrictions on putting names down for others in the first 48 hours after each schedule thread is put up: 1. Each GIFFA Player can put a maximum of 4 GIFFA Players down inclusive of himself. 2. No guests (non-GIFFA Players) can be put down. I will not put any names down in the first 48 hours. Additionally, after 48 hours, there is a maximum of 1 guest per player, until 6 hours before the game. Guests must be 18 or above in the current year. In the last 6 hours before the game, places are opened to any male aged 18 or above. In the last 3 hours, the age restriction is reduced to 16. .... However, the Tuesday game has only 12 places instead of the 14 or 16 for the other games, so if I allow up to 4 per player, 3 players could fill all the places. As such, I'll limit it to 3 per player for the Tuesday game, in the first 48 hours. The other sanctions on Dennis continue to apply until further notice: - Dennis is excluded from future team selector/captain polls.
- The "zip it" rule will apply to Dennis. If any other player faces Dennis and runs an imaginary zip across his own mouth, Dennis is not to utter a word for the next 5 minutes. The player doing so should do so from a reasonable distance in order not to inflame or aggravate the situation.
Additionally, on the report threads, Dennis is subject to a limit of 200 words per post. Any post longer than 200 words will be deleted. He can post multiple times to circumvent the 200 word limit, but in that case, each post must have a clear and concise subject matter stated at the beginning of each post. No subject matter should be repeated, so in effect, it is a 200 word limit per subject.
The last sanction only applies to report threads, not other threads.
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Post by Rajiv on Feb 17, 2016 12:40:42 GMT 8
I think I can finally round up the "Dennis" issues. From the "GIFFA values, principles & standards" thread: The current exclusions post currently provides as follows:  This thread is almost 5 months' long, so I will review Dennis's exclusion from the team selector/captain poll after 5 months. From the schedule thread for the game yesterday (Tuesday) at The Grandstand (small pitch): .... The "zip it" rule is now of general application. From the Game Rules: Team selectors/captains can apply the "zip it" rule. If any player argues excessively or too aggressively, either selector/captain can, facing the player from a reasonable distance, run an imaginary zip across his mouth. This should be done from a reasonable distance in order not to inflame or aggravate the situation. The player concerned should not utter a word for 5 minutes thereafter. Selectors/captains can apply the "zip it" rule to any player on his own team who he thinks is being too vocal. .... The word limit on Dennis's posts on report threads is lifted. However, please note the following from the "GIFFA values, principles & standards" thread: Feedback on significant matters is important. It is best given on the report threads, or the Chat threads. If it's genuinely sensitive, you can message me personally, but please don't message privately me just to avoid a more public discussion of the issue. An open discussion of relevant matters is important as to how the response is shaped. That's the nature of a forum. What is more important is to express yourself with sufficient moderation and courteousness. The aim is to deal with an issue, not to cause offence to anyone. I will add this to either the GIFFA System thread or the Forum Overview post, or both, at some stage. It is in any event, common sense. And from the report thread for the game last night: .... No more villains for our Tuesday game I hope. By the way, I take it this is the "pony trick" that got Dennis all heated up:  Maybe a bit disrespectful, maybe better seen in a circus than a football match, but still worth a bit of applause right? And of course, in a circus, while perhaps cheaper to watch, the circumstances wouldn't be as challenging, which makes the feat all the more admirable when performed in a top level football match. |
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Post by Rajiv on Feb 26, 2016 23:25:20 GMT 8
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water .... - From the team captains on the report thread for the game on Tuesday, 23 February 2016, at The Grandstand (small pitch):
.... Fantastic fast flowing match that saw a goal every couple of minutes in an end to end thriller. Whites had their superstars on show again in Steeves and Loic (with Loic starting on the bench! - Rajiv - surely a goal tax must be imposed on a team that turns up and plays rolling subs! I suggest 16.6% :-) Whites took an early lead with Steeves burying his first chance. Bizarrely, own goals from Whites kept Reds in it in the early stages with the score 6-4 with three own goals from White (Yeo, Mark and Stuart). As the game went on Dennis worked the right side and Loic came on around half way finishing with aplomb. Reds kept fast breasking and taking advantage of any opportunity with Yas helping build from the back. Arek, Neil, Raph and Steffen all racing forward and scoring to keep us in the game. Shame it came to an abrupt end but great game. Raph
Just some facts: 1. I was carrying a slight injury which I aggravated during the game so I had to step out 2. I didn't know Loic would be there (will leave Dennis to comment) ....
- From one of the team captains on the report thread for the game last night (Thursday) at Khalsa:
It was a good game and Whites deserved the win for being more cohesive. As Reds captain, I have to bring up two issues for discussion and for the improvement of our games. First, when the line ups are confirmed and planned at 7v7, we should stick to the list and not bring spare players. The line-ups were planned by Rajiv and assessed to be balanced based on the names on hand. Also, we make the captains job harder by having to re-jig the line-ups. Specifically, I planned before hand to play a certain formation but had to re-think when Dennis decided at the last minute to sit out and let Loic play. I had also to rejig the line up again when Dennis replaced Loic with 20 minutes to go. I think he was injured. All these made my job as the captain job harder. We all should endeavour to make the captains job easy. Next issue, sideline coaching. While Dennis was sitting out he decided to do a fair amount of sideline coaching a.k.a. Tony Pulis. As captain, I should have been more firm to ask him to "zip it" as it affected my role to Captain my side properly. My style is to Captain in a "lead by example" quieter style much like the great Captain Marvel Bryan Robson used to do. On hindsight, I should have politely asked Dennis aka Tony Pulis to sit outside the pitch and not stand behind the goal. Maybe we should call it Behind the Goal coaching. Well we all learn. This second point I have to bring up especially as some of my teammates on Reds did feedback to me that the sideline coaching did affect their enjoyment of the game. Rajiv, do we have any precedent to draw on for sideline/behind the goal coaching? Anyway, hope all my comments are taken in the right spirit so we can improve our games. Cheers all.
There is much discussion on both threads that must be read to be believed!
My first contribution on the Thursday thread:
And my final contribution on the Thursday thread:
At the present time, and in the case of Dennis, I will say it as I see it. Dennis feels that it is his prerogative to speak his mind. It is no less mine. And wasn't he inviting that earlier? That everyone should speak their minds? .... I will add that Dennis has a lot of respect for everything that he sees as a reflection or representative of his ego, such as Manchester United, which doesn't actually change what I said to begin with - it's in the main about him and what he identifies with - his "inflated ego", or "reflected ego" if you pefer. Dennis could disregard every rule to suit himself and anyone or anything else he identifies with, and still argue endlessly that he was justified in doing so (his super-ego?), wearing down anyone else who disagrees with him with "verbal diarrhea" and not so subtle insults. Where is the "respect" in that? Whether fortunately or not, I am not easily worn down. And I've learnt to laugh at Dennis's sense of self-importance, and his self-centredness. We all should. And humour is very much in the spirit of the forum. .... Someone once accurately described Dennis as "narcissistic". I am being kind in limiting myself to describing him as "egotistical".  I will give Dennis his due, he has made a lot of effort, and he did finally come round to: .... I apologise unreservedly to the captain of last night's game for making a substitution without first getting permission. .... Even if it was after more than 500 words of whys and wherefores. Now all we need is a simple one: .... .... And he really should apologise unreservedly for the "sideline coaching" too. .... That should bring matters to a close. See, Dennis could have done both apologies without all the to and fro above. It would have been less than 30 words. And as an incentive, I'll spare Dennis this: .... From now on I will refer to you as Egotistical Dennis in all administrative posts.
Well, if nothing else, Dennis is always entertaining.
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Post by Raphael on May 26, 2016 16:18:47 GMT 8
Shouldn't suspended player be removed from Dennis now - looks like he's carrying a criminal record!
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Post by Rajiv on May 27, 2016 8:19:35 GMT 8
From the report thread for the game on Tuesday 1 March 2016: .... Dennis hasn't even properly acknowledged, let alone apologised for, the issues he has generated, summarised in an earlier post on this thread as follows: .... It's a mouth issue isn't it, which spoils the games. .... .... Just off the top of my head, I can think of events or matters just over the last couple of weeks which show you don't know or appreciate the core values, principles and rules, even after many reminders:
- Introducing a substitute without agreement of both captains or a consensus of those playing. As I highlighted on the WhatsApp group chat before the game, the rules clearly provide that we play without substitutes. Here it is, once again (from the Rules post), just for you:
- More generally, claiming to know and apply the rules when you clearly don't know or appreciate the overriding principles, core values and rules.
- Making, disputing or insisting on calls, even when you're not involved, thereby causing or risking repeated interruption to the game, and worse, spoiling the game.
- More broadly, insisting that everyone accept what you say, even your apologies, and persisting well beyond what is reasonable to convince others. By that stage, they're more likely to want to kill you (just kidding!) than accept your apology, or whatever it is you have to say.
- Overreacting to occurrences during a game to either wind up your opponents or to swing decisions in favour of your team.
- In particular, trying to wind up Shamir over several months, including repeated and recent references to "fragile egos", albeit without naming him, knowing that several people will know that you are referring to him, whether or not you are referring to others as well.
- Detracting from safety in your response on WhatsApp to my reminder to a player to take care (image also above).
You don't need to remember lots of technical rules. All you really need to remember are:
- We accommodate different styles of play.
- The game should be fun for everyone.
- Selectors/captains have the final say.
Not that difficult, is it? Not rocket science in any event. .... The above passage has been quoted at least a couple of times since, without any proper acknowledgement by Dennis of even the issues raised. In any event, I think the Tuesday night game needs a longer breather from Dennis, so his suspension from the Tuesday game will continue at least until the end of April 2016. He can play in other games. sorry chaps I have only had a chance to read all these. I already apologised to Shamir for the tackle, and apologised to my team for arguing with them. I did not do any harm on that Tuesday to the other team, apart from celebrating our team's goals which I also apologised to Stuart and team because I didn't know my over zealous celebration was offending them. now I know so I apologise. I honestly hand to heart, don't know what else I did wrong on that Tuesday - gosh! will someone other than Rajiv (who incidentally) wasn't at the game tell me please!! Yes, Shamir reacts to me. I was probably staying quite clear from him that evening until the late tackle and infact when he retaliated and offered after game convo and action, I declined. so I thought I was defusing matters already. I feel somewhat victimised now. I need a lawyer.... I pretty much thought I was abiding with the rules in that game. I was just disagreeing a lot with my own team on tactics - walked away from a potential explosion - anything else, someone from that game remind me please. thanks. As far as I am concerned, it is no longer an issue between Dennis and Shamir, or the game on 1 March 2016. It is now a question of how to re-introduce Dennis to our games without the same old issues surrounding Dennis re-surfacing. Unfortunately there are still other players who will not play in a game that Dennis is playing in. I don't think Dennis has acknowledged the issues raised in the first quote above. Many of them were raised on this thread long before the game on 1 March 2016. Maybe it is a matter of pride or ego that makes it difficult for him to acknowledge let alone apologise for the issues that recurred even after several reminders from me. Perhaps Dennis should stick to the weekend games at The Grandstand, where there are several other loud and egotistical players to neutralise or dilute his effect. I also acknowledge that even before the game on 1 March 2016, Dennis had already been making an effort to be less noisy and pushy in games. He has since then played in 2 games with no adverse effects: He also played in the game last night (Thursday, 26 May 2016, at Khalsa). I am awaiting the report. Going forward, I'll let Dennis play in any game he wants to. However, he remains on probation, so I won't allow him to put his name down himself, at least until the end of June 2016. He has to do so through me. He is also excluded from team selector/captain polls until the end of the year. I will move any further post relating to Dennis on the report thread for the game on 1 March 2016 from there to here. |
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PLEASE READ TO THE END OF THIS THREAD. YOUR PARTICIPATION IN OUR GAMES IS PREMISED ON IT.
Let's respect players each other. 
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